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	<title>Comments on: The Applied Science of Intelligent Design-Part IV</title>
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	<link>http://www.intelldesign.com/2009/06/08/the-applied-science-of-intelligent-design-part-iv/</link>
	<description>Intelligent Design, Creationism, Evolution, and Theology</description>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.intelldesign.com/2009/06/08/the-applied-science-of-intelligent-design-part-iv/comment-page-1/#comment-2468</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intelldesign.com/?p=912#comment-2468</guid>
		<description>If we know DaVinci painted the &#039;Mona Lisa&#039; by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer/reproduce it by painstakingly painting one detailed brush stroke at a time?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then get out your paints and blindfold and start chucking!

Conversely, if we know DaVinci painted the &#039;Mona Lisa&#039; painstakingly one detailed brush stroke at a time, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer/reproduce it by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then be prepared to spend a lifetime studying and practicing your art!

So evolutionary scientists &quot;know&quot; the Mona Lisa (nature) was created blindly by the globs of paint** (cosmic/biological evolution), yet they try to see if they can &quot;reverse-engineer&quot; it using detailed brush strokes. To me, that makes them look like idiots.  Even moreso if they actually succeed in recreating the Mona Lisa!  Because then they will say: &quot;See, the Mona Lisa really WAS created by blind processes! - we just DUPLICATED it!&quot;.  When in fact, of course, they will have only shown that their Mona Lisa was created by idiots who just proved the opposite.


(** hurling &lt;i&gt;itselves&lt;/i&gt; at the canvas, no-less.  Wow, what &lt;i&gt;clever&lt;/i&gt; paint!)&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2468&#039;,&#039;Mike&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;2468&#039;,&#039;Mike&#039;,&#039;If we know DaVinci painted the \&#039;Mona Lisa\&#039; by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer\/reproduce it by painstakingly painting one detailed brush stroke at a time?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then get out your paints and blindfold and start chucking!\r\n\r\nConversely, if we know DaVinci painted the \&#039;Mona Lisa\&#039; painstakingly one detailed brush stroke at a time, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer\/reproduce it by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then be prepared to spend a lifetime studying and practicing your art!\r\n\r\nSo evolutionary scientists \&quot;know\&quot; the Mona Lisa (nature) was created blindly by the globs of paint** (cosmic\/biological evolution), yet they try to see if they can \&quot;reverse-engineer\&quot; it using detailed brush strokes. To me, that makes them look like idiots.  Even moreso if they actually succeed in recreating the Mona Lisa!  Because then they will say: \&quot;See, the Mona Lisa really WAS created by blind processes! - we just DUPLICATED it!\&quot;.  When in fact, of course, they will have only shown that their Mona Lisa was created by idiots who just proved the opposite.\r\n\r\n\r\n(** hurling &lt;i&gt;itselves&lt;\/i&gt; at the canvas, no-less.  Wow, what &lt;i&gt;clever&lt;\/i&gt; paint!)&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we know DaVinci painted the &#8216;Mona Lisa&#8217; by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer/reproduce it by painstakingly painting one detailed brush stroke at a time?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then get out your paints and blindfold and start chucking!</p>
<p>Conversely, if we know DaVinci painted the &#8216;Mona Lisa&#8217; painstakingly one detailed brush stroke at a time, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer/reproduce it by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then be prepared to spend a lifetime studying and practicing your art!</p>
<p>So evolutionary scientists &#8220;know&#8221; the Mona Lisa (nature) was created blindly by the globs of paint** (cosmic/biological evolution), yet they try to see if they can &#8220;reverse-engineer&#8221; it using detailed brush strokes. To me, that makes them look like idiots.  Even moreso if they actually succeed in recreating the Mona Lisa!  Because then they will say: &#8220;See, the Mona Lisa really WAS created by blind processes! &#8211; we just DUPLICATED it!&#8221;.  When in fact, of course, they will have only shown that their Mona Lisa was created by idiots who just proved the opposite.</p>
<p>(** hurling <i>itselves</i> at the canvas, no-less.  Wow, what <i>clever</i> paint!)
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2468','Mike'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('2468','Mike','If we know DaVinci painted the \'Mona Lisa\' by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer\/reproduce it by painstakingly painting one detailed brush stroke at a time?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then get out your paints and blindfold and start chucking!\r\n\r\nConversely, if we know DaVinci painted the \'Mona Lisa\' painstakingly one detailed brush stroke at a time, then what fool would try to reverse-engineer\/reproduce it by blindly hurling globs of paint at the canvas?  If you really want to reverse-engineer it, then be prepared to spend a lifetime studying and practicing your art!\r\n\r\nSo evolutionary scientists \&quot;know\&quot; the Mona Lisa (nature) was created blindly by the globs of paint** (cosmic\/biological evolution), yet they try to see if they can \&quot;reverse-engineer\&quot; it using detailed brush strokes. To me, that makes them look like idiots.  Even moreso if they actually succeed in recreating the Mona Lisa!  Because then they will say: \&quot;See, the Mona Lisa really WAS created by blind processes! - we just DUPLICATED it!\&quot;.  When in fact, of course, they will have only shown that their Mona Lisa was created by idiots who just proved the opposite.\r\n\r\n\r\n(** hurling &lt;i&gt;itselves&lt;\/i&gt; at the canvas, no-less.  Wow, what &lt;i&gt;clever&lt;\/i&gt; paint!)'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: DB</title>
		<link>http://www.intelldesign.com/2009/06/08/the-applied-science-of-intelligent-design-part-iv/comment-page-1/#comment-2415</link>
		<dc:creator>DB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intelldesign.com/?p=912#comment-2415</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It never ends.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Oh yes it does! ;-)&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2415&#039;,&#039;DB&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;2415&#039;,&#039;DB&#039;,&#039;&lt;blockquote&gt;It never ends.&lt;\/blockquote&gt;\r\n\r\nOh yes it does! ;-)&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It never ends.</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh yes it does! <img src='http://www.intelldesign.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2415','DB'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('2415','DB','&lt;blockquote&gt;It never ends.&lt;\/blockquote&gt;\r\n\r\nOh yes it does! ;-)'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.intelldesign.com/2009/06/08/the-applied-science-of-intelligent-design-part-iv/comment-page-1/#comment-2414</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intelldesign.com/?p=912#comment-2414</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;clever ideas from the natural world&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It never ends.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2414&#039;,&#039;Mike&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;2414&#039;,&#039;Mike&#039;,&#039;&lt;blockquote&gt;\&quot;clever ideas from the natural world\&quot;&lt;\/blockquote&gt;\r\n\r\nIt never ends.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;clever ideas from the natural world&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>It never ends.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2414','Mike'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('2414','Mike','&lt;blockquote&gt;\&quot;clever ideas from the natural world\&quot;&lt;\/blockquote&gt;\r\n\r\nIt never ends.'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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		<title>By: Carl Sachs</title>
		<link>http://www.intelldesign.com/2009/06/08/the-applied-science-of-intelligent-design-part-iv/comment-page-1/#comment-2413</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Sachs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intelldesign.com/?p=912#comment-2413</guid>
		<description>The real question, to my mind, is whether the ID vs. NTME debate is even relevant to biomimicry.  To know that, we&#039;d have to figure out what &lt;I&gt;specific&lt;/I&gt; observations are more probable if ID is true, or if NTME is true.  

I don&#039;t think that the mere possibility of biomimicry is enough -- that is, I don&#039;t think we can argue that biomimicry is &lt;I&gt;just by itself&lt;/I&gt; a point in favor of ID, unless there were some &lt;I&gt;a priori&lt;/I&gt; argument to the effect that NTME is astonishingly unlikely to explain the sorts of biomimicry that we can produce.  

But even so, &lt;I&gt;a priori&lt;/I&gt; arguments, such as those drawn from probability theory, are at best peripheral to empirical science.  

NTME, by contrast, begins by rejecting the analogy between organisms and machines which is, I think, quite central to design theory.  Every time the analogy comes up, it seems to me to be some version of &quot;organisms are exactly like machines, except for all the ways that they aren&#039;t.&quot;  That analogy is as fallacious today as it was when Hume attacked it in 1776.  

What&#039;s necessary -- though by large it has not been forthcoming -- is an &lt;I&gt;ontology of life&lt;/I&gt;, which makes clear what it is for something be a life-form, a living thing, what makes life distinct from non-life.  I think that doing so would make a massive contribution to this entire debate.  

Dembski seems to take as his main target Jacque Monod&#039;s &lt;I&gt;Chance and Necessity&lt;/I&gt;, and set up &#039;design&#039; as the third category: chance, necessity, and design.  But &#039;design&#039; is only necessary if one has first capitulated to Monod that a world without design is a world of chance and necessity, and I don&#039;t think this is the right way to go -- not at all.  

The alternative, I think, is to go back to the neo-Aristotelianism of John Dewey (&lt;I&gt;Experience and Nature&lt;/I&gt;) and Hans Jonas (&lt;I&gt;The Phenomenon of Life&lt;/I&gt;), and to work up an ontology of life which respects the distinction between life and non-life, and which pays close attention to the ontological structure of organisms.  Recently this approach has been picked up again by Evan Thompson in his &lt;I&gt;Mind in Life&lt;/I&gt;, where he argues that all living things have mental properties of some type and degree.  It&#039;s a strange view, to be sure, but I find it quite appealing!&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2413&#039;,&#039;Carl Sachs&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt;  - &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;2413&#039;,&#039;Carl Sachs&#039;,&#039;The real question, to my mind, is whether the ID vs. NTME debate is even relevant to biomimicry.  To know that, we\&#039;d have to figure out what &lt;I&gt;specific&lt;\/I&gt; observations are more probable if ID is true, or if NTME is true.  \r\n\r\nI don\&#039;t think that the mere possibility of biomimicry is enough -- that is, I don\&#039;t think we can argue that biomimicry is &lt;I&gt;just by itself&lt;\/I&gt; a point in favor of ID, unless there were some &lt;I&gt;a priori&lt;\/I&gt; argument to the effect that NTME is astonishingly unlikely to explain the sorts of biomimicry that we can produce.  \r\n\r\nBut even so, &lt;I&gt;a priori&lt;\/I&gt; arguments, such as those drawn from probability theory, are at best peripheral to empirical science.  \r\n\r\nNTME, by contrast, begins by rejecting the analogy between organisms and machines which is, I think, quite central to design theory.  Every time the analogy comes up, it seems to me to be some version of \&quot;organisms are exactly like machines, except for all the ways that they aren\&#039;t.\&quot;  That analogy is as fallacious today as it was when Hume attacked it in 1776.  \r\n\r\nWhat\&#039;s necessary -- though by large it has not been forthcoming -- is an &lt;I&gt;ontology of life&lt;\/I&gt;, which makes clear what it is for something be a life-form, a living thing, what makes life distinct from non-life.  I think that doing so would make a massive contribution to this entire debate.  \r\n\r\nDembski seems to take as his main target Jacque Monod\&#039;s &lt;I&gt;Chance and Necessity&lt;\/I&gt;, and set up \&#039;design\&#039; as the third category: chance, necessity, and design.  But \&#039;design\&#039; is only necessary if one has first capitulated to Monod that a world without design is a world of chance and necessity, and I don\&#039;t think this is the right way to go -- not at all.  \r\n\r\nThe alternative, I think, is to go back to the neo-Aristotelianism of John Dewey (&lt;I&gt;Experience and Nature&lt;\/I&gt;) and Hans Jonas (&lt;I&gt;The Phenomenon of Life&lt;\/I&gt;), and to work up an ontology of life which respects the distinction between life and non-life, and which pays close attention to the ontological structure of organisms.  Recently this approach has been picked up again by Evan Thompson in his &lt;I&gt;Mind in Life&lt;\/I&gt;, where he argues that all living things have mental properties of some type and degree.  It\&#039;s a strange view, to be sure, but I find it quite appealing!&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real question, to my mind, is whether the ID vs. NTME debate is even relevant to biomimicry.  To know that, we&#8217;d have to figure out what <i>specific</i> observations are more probable if ID is true, or if NTME is true.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that the mere possibility of biomimicry is enough &#8212; that is, I don&#8217;t think we can argue that biomimicry is <i>just by itself</i> a point in favor of ID, unless there were some <i>a priori</i> argument to the effect that NTME is astonishingly unlikely to explain the sorts of biomimicry that we can produce.  </p>
<p>But even so, <i>a priori</i> arguments, such as those drawn from probability theory, are at best peripheral to empirical science.  </p>
<p>NTME, by contrast, begins by rejecting the analogy between organisms and machines which is, I think, quite central to design theory.  Every time the analogy comes up, it seems to me to be some version of &#8220;organisms are exactly like machines, except for all the ways that they aren&#8217;t.&#8221;  That analogy is as fallacious today as it was when Hume attacked it in 1776.  </p>
<p>What&#8217;s necessary &#8212; though by large it has not been forthcoming &#8212; is an <i>ontology of life</i>, which makes clear what it is for something be a life-form, a living thing, what makes life distinct from non-life.  I think that doing so would make a massive contribution to this entire debate.  </p>
<p>Dembski seems to take as his main target Jacque Monod&#8217;s <i>Chance and Necessity</i>, and set up &#8216;design&#8217; as the third category: chance, necessity, and design.  But &#8216;design&#8217; is only necessary if one has first capitulated to Monod that a world without design is a world of chance and necessity, and I don&#8217;t think this is the right way to go &#8212; not at all.  </p>
<p>The alternative, I think, is to go back to the neo-Aristotelianism of John Dewey (<i>Experience and Nature</i>) and Hans Jonas (<i>The Phenomenon of Life</i>), and to work up an ontology of life which respects the distinction between life and non-life, and which pays close attention to the ontological structure of organisms.  Recently this approach has been picked up again by Evan Thompson in his <i>Mind in Life</i>, where he argues that all living things have mental properties of some type and degree.  It&#8217;s a strange view, to be sure, but I find it quite appealing!
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2413','Carl Sachs'); return false;">Reply</a>  &#8211; <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('2413','Carl Sachs','The real question, to my mind, is whether the ID vs. NTME debate is even relevant to biomimicry.  To know that, we\'d have to figure out what &lt;I&gt;specific&lt;\/I&gt; observations are more probable if ID is true, or if NTME is true.  \r\n\r\nI don\'t think that the mere possibility of biomimicry is enough -- that is, I don\'t think we can argue that biomimicry is &lt;I&gt;just by itself&lt;\/I&gt; a point in favor of ID, unless there were some &lt;I&gt;a priori&lt;\/I&gt; argument to the effect that NTME is astonishingly unlikely to explain the sorts of biomimicry that we can produce.  \r\n\r\nBut even so, &lt;I&gt;a priori&lt;\/I&gt; arguments, such as those drawn from probability theory, are at best peripheral to empirical science.  \r\n\r\nNTME, by contrast, begins by rejecting the analogy between organisms and machines which is, I think, quite central to design theory.  Every time the analogy comes up, it seems to me to be some version of \&quot;organisms are exactly like machines, except for all the ways that they aren\'t.\&quot;  That analogy is as fallacious today as it was when Hume attacked it in 1776.  \r\n\r\nWhat\'s necessary -- though by large it has not been forthcoming -- is an &lt;I&gt;ontology of life&lt;\/I&gt;, which makes clear what it is for something be a life-form, a living thing, what makes life distinct from non-life.  I think that doing so would make a massive contribution to this entire debate.  \r\n\r\nDembski seems to take as his main target Jacque Monod\'s &lt;I&gt;Chance and Necessity&lt;\/I&gt;, and set up \'design\' as the third category: chance, necessity, and design.  But \'design\' is only necessary if one has first capitulated to Monod that a world without design is a world of chance and necessity, and I don\'t think this is the right way to go -- not at all.  \r\n\r\nThe alternative, I think, is to go back to the neo-Aristotelianism of John Dewey (&lt;I&gt;Experience and Nature&lt;\/I&gt;) and Hans Jonas (&lt;I&gt;The Phenomenon of Life&lt;\/I&gt;), and to work up an ontology of life which respects the distinction between life and non-life, and which pays close attention to the ontological structure of organisms.  Recently this approach has been picked up again by Evan Thompson in his &lt;I&gt;Mind in Life&lt;\/I&gt;, where he argues that all living things have mental properties of some type and degree.  It\'s a strange view, to be sure, but I find it quite appealing!'); return false;">Quote</a></div>
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